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Post by Kiskos on Aug 3, 2012 11:26:44 GMT
If you insist.
One death is a tragedy; one million is a statistic.
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Post by Prothero on Aug 3, 2012 14:46:53 GMT
FFS, how many times do I have to repeat that for the purposes of this conversation I have already accepted that reform was necessary? If that's all you have to bang on about then your argument is absolutely fucked. Sorry Sheff, you're obviously missing my point. You suggest that reform was necessary, the point I was trying to make is that large parts of industry were beyond reform. As our country was on the point of bankruptcy (again) in the late 70's it wasn't an option to continue subsidising industries that were: a) Beyond reform b) Had intractable 'labour relations' issues and c) Were withering and dying anyway because of low-cost competition from overseas. I'm delighted you accept that reform was necessary, say in the automotive, steel or mining industry but your enthusiasm was hardly shared by Michael Foot's Labour Party, the unions or the workers at the time. Maybe you're a little bit less Tony Benn and a bit more Tony Blair than I thought?
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Post by Tenacious S on Aug 3, 2012 16:32:02 GMT
FFS, how many times do I have to repeat that for the purposes of this conversation I have already accepted that reform was necessary? If that's all you have to bang on about then your argument is absolutely fucked. Sorry Sheff, you're obviously missing my point. You suggest that reform was necessary, the point I was trying to make is that large parts of industry were beyond reform. As our country was on the point of bankruptcy (again) in the late 70's it wasn't an option to continue subsidising industries that were: a) Beyond reform b) Had intractable 'labour relations' issues and c) Were withering and dying anyway because of low-cost competition from overseas. I'm delighted you accept that reform was necessary, say in the automotive, steel or mining industry but your enthusiasm was hardly shared by Michael Foot's Labour Party, the unions or the workers at the time. Maybe you're a little bit less Tony Benn and a bit more Tony Blair than I thought? Beyond reform? Can I assume that we don't in fact now manufacture any cars or any steel of any sort then? Or mine any coal? And that also pays no attention whatsoever to my other point that she should have looked to alternative industries and sectors to replace the jobs that were being destroyed. Putting millions of working class men simultaneously on the scrapheap with nothing for them to do and nowhere for them to go was an awful thing to do and has had predictable consequences that society is still dealing with today.
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Camp Freddy
played a blider!
"I do think you might make an effort to keep up with the others"
Posts: 9,592
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Post by Camp Freddy on Aug 3, 2012 17:08:04 GMT
Or not dealing with, as the case may be.
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Post by Dino on Aug 3, 2012 17:14:56 GMT
Prothero's beyond reform argument reminds me of this joke:
Two hunters are out in the woods when one of them collapses. He doesn't seem to be breathing and his eyes are glazed. The other guy takes out his phone and calls the emergency services.
He gasps: "My friend is dead! What can I do?" The operator says: "Calm down, I can help. First, let's make sure he's dead." There is a silence, then a gunshot is heard. Back on the phone, the guy says: "OK, now what?"
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Post by ghanaianbaggie on Aug 3, 2012 17:15:11 GMT
What about the Renault Megane? With a mere ninety brake horsepower available, progress is too leisurely to be called fast, but on the motorway in fifth gear the Megane’s slow pace really becomes a pain. Uphill runs become power-sappingly mundane, while overtaking National Express coaches can become a long, drawn-out affair. Had to drive my sisters 1.6 Picasso ... I'm sure that must be worse! I mean its a car - so that is hugely better than say riding a horse or walking. But as a car - it is a hateful thing with all the personality of a washing machine. If BL had been managed better in the 60s & 70s, at least I have the option of buying an Austin or a Morris now, instead of one of those French things. I guess then we'd be moaning about something made in this country!
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twobags
Senior Board Member
tweeting is for tits
Posts: 120
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Post by twobags on Aug 3, 2012 19:50:55 GMT
I apologise for providing the fuel to take this past a one pager
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Post by Prothero on Aug 3, 2012 22:15:25 GMT
Beyond reform? Can I assume that we don't in fact now manufacture any cars or any steel of any sort then? Or mine any coal? And that also pays no attention whatsoever to my other point that she should have looked to alternative industries and sectors to replace the jobs that were being destroyed. Putting millions of working class men simultaneously on the scrapheap with nothing for them to do and nowhere for them to go was an awful thing to do and has had predictable consequences that society is still dealing with today. Sheff, you read want you want to read don't you? Where did I ever say automotive, steel or mining was beyond reform? That was precisely my point. Ian MacGregor created a modern steel and coal industry in the face of communists and anarchists who would have preferred to see this country collapse than agree to reform. Michael Edwardes and Harold Musgrove began the same process at BL, which to be fair, was pretty much beyond reform. Still, the inward investment by Honda, Nissan, BMW and latterly Tata is due to the sea change in labour market reform in the automotive industry. Alternative industries have been developed to replace the high volume low margin manufacturing that went. Retail, distribution and financial services (where the UK has a huge competitive advantage) have grown hugely. These days jobs distribution warehouses pay better wages than much low margin manufacturing in much better working conditions. As for the scrapheap. You get what you get from life through the effort you put in. MY old man lost his job when Austin Rover shut Castle Bromwich in the 80s. Within weeks he was back in a job and spent the last 20 years of his working life contracting all over Europe. I spent 17 years in the commercial property industry before being made redundant along with a raft of colleagues (and a raft of bankers too). I got off my arse and started a business, most of my peers are either back in employment of started up on their own too. It's too easy and too cool to blame Thatcher. It's 30 years later, and to suggest people are still suffering from a much more shortlived recession than the one we're currently in is Socialist nostalgic indulgence.
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Post by HawkingsHalfpipe on Aug 3, 2012 23:29:40 GMT
I spent 17 years in the commercial property industry before being made redundant along with a raft of colleagues (and a raft of bankers too). I got off my arse and started a business, most of my peers are either back in employment of started up on their own too. It's too easy and too cool to blame Thatcher. It's 30 years later, and to suggest people are still suffering from a much more shortlived recession than the one we're currently in is Socialist nostalgic indulgence. This.
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Post by The Nation of Ulysses on Aug 3, 2012 23:52:20 GMT
we don't in fact now manufacture any cars or any steel of any sort Not really a "fact" in any conventional sense of the word "fact".
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Camp Freddy
played a blider!
"I do think you might make an effort to keep up with the others"
Posts: 9,592
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Post by Camp Freddy on Aug 4, 2012 8:48:10 GMT
I spent 17 years in the commercial property industry before being made redundant along with a raft of colleagues (and a raft of bankers too). I got off my arse and started a business, most of my peers are either back in employment of started up on their own too. It's too easy and too cool to blame Thatcher. It's 30 years later, and to suggest people are still suffering from a much more shortlived recession than the one we're currently in is Socialist nostalgic indulgence. This. People are not suffering the after-effects of that recession and to claim that anyone has said so is (yet) another straw man. The catastrophic effects of consigning millions to the dole simultaneously are still being felt in many communities. To say that the odd person got a job proves that all of them could have done is also nonsense. Widespread long-term unemployment completely altered many British towns and cities, I see no credibility in denying any of that.
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Post by Fulham Fallout on Aug 4, 2012 9:10:07 GMT
Weoley Castle must have felt the brunt of the Thatcher years then.
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Post by HawkingsHalfpipe on Aug 4, 2012 17:29:28 GMT
People are not suffering the after-effects of that recession and to claim that anyone has said so is (yet) another straw man. The catastrophic effects of consigning millions to the dole simultaneously are still being felt in many communities. To say that the odd person got a job proves that all of them could have done is also nonsense. Widespread long-term unemployment completely altered many British towns and cities, I see no credibility in denying any of that. I haven't actually said a lot of what you are alluding to but thanks. Please hold that thought though as I'm in the sticks at the moment (and with shit internet access) and would be keen to expound. Even if it will do little but fruitlessly rouse the ire of the anti-Thatcherite mob (as I am far from being a Thatcherite - I'm just not fond of people talking faux-sympathetic shite).
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Camp Freddy
played a blider!
"I do think you might make an effort to keep up with the others"
Posts: 9,592
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Post by Camp Freddy on Aug 4, 2012 17:43:20 GMT
You didn't say it, you agreed with Proth when he did. Or appeared to anyway.
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Post by Tenacious S on Aug 4, 2012 23:05:03 GMT
we don't in fact now manufacture any cars or any steel of any sort Not really a "fact" in any conventional sense of the word "fact". And there we have the winner of this year's award for out of context quoting.
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Post by Prothero on Aug 5, 2012 18:23:03 GMT
People are not suffering the after-effects of that recession and to claim that anyone has said so is (yet) another straw man. The catastrophic effects of consigning millions to the dole simultaneously are still being felt in many communities. Forgive me Fred, but I'm wondering how can you reconcile the first line with the second?
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Post by bobmonkhouseclique on Aug 5, 2012 19:18:03 GMT
By the time this thread ends she will deffo be dyud - the way you are all going at it
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Camp Freddy
played a blider!
"I do think you might make an effort to keep up with the others"
Posts: 9,592
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Post by Camp Freddy on Aug 5, 2012 21:26:44 GMT
People are not suffering the after-effects of that recession and to claim that anyone has said so is (yet) another straw man. The catastrophic effects of consigning millions to the dole simultaneously are still being felt in many communities. Forgive me Fred, but I'm wondering how can you reconcile the first line with the second? It wasn't the short-lived recession which was the cause it was a consistent long-term ideological strategy which preceded, coincided with and continued after the period of shrinkage. Like the public sector job losses under this administration (assuming that they outlast the recession they've created, which is by no means certain).
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Post by Astlebridge on Aug 5, 2012 22:00:39 GMT
Shocking challenge on Pedro Mendez. Shocking.
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Post by JimDavis on Aug 5, 2012 22:49:22 GMT
I for one would be sad when she dies. The idea that she could be suffering and in pain for longer than she was in charge makes me smile. Her death would only end this.
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Post by Totally Tropical Tiesto on Aug 6, 2012 8:51:48 GMT
I for one would be sad when she dies. The idea that she could be suffering and in pain for longer than she was in charge makes me smile. Her death would only end this. Classy.
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PK
played a blider!
Posts: 7,721
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Post by PK on Aug 6, 2012 8:56:17 GMT
I love the hypocrisy of this dump at times.
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Post by The Nation of Ulysses on Aug 7, 2012 8:17:55 GMT
I love the hypocrisy of this dump at times. A fitting last word for this Fred.
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PK
played a blider!
Posts: 7,721
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Post by PK on Aug 7, 2012 8:27:57 GMT
Then you go and spoil it! ;D
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Post by The Nation of Ulysses on Aug 7, 2012 8:28:45 GMT
Then you go and spoil it! ;D All by saying something stupid like I love you?
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PK
played a blider!
Posts: 7,721
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Post by PK on Aug 7, 2012 8:32:02 GMT
Laffin.
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Post by The Nation of Ulysses on Aug 7, 2012 8:34:33 GMT
I think it's nice this Fred ends on a more positive note. It'll NEVER be like this once the season starts.
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Post by chingachgook on Aug 7, 2012 9:53:50 GMT
In WW1 the British ships had an advantage over German ones for refuelling because they used the Welsh anthracite coal which burned hotter and longer, plus of course the Germans had less places they could refuel, not having such an empire. And the mining communities also supplied many men as well as fuel in that war and others. So it was sad that the miners were made the enemy by Thatcher. Just one area of industry hit unnecessarily hard by Thatcher for ideological reasons which failed dreadfully, the social cost of which we still suffer from in dysfunctional communities across the UK. At least she didn’t support Villa though.
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Post by Totally Tropical Tiesto on Aug 7, 2012 9:56:12 GMT
I don't think Scargill helped matters now did he?
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PK
played a blider!
Posts: 7,721
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Post by PK on Aug 7, 2012 9:56:54 GMT
What a helmet.
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