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Post by HawkingsHalfpipe on Jul 20, 2012 20:04:03 GMT
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Post by astle9 on Jul 20, 2012 20:10:51 GMT
always going to happen and will just get worse as the NHS is ripped apart for the great private companies who never fail to achieve targets take over , gutted for the family and i hope they can recover from it in some way.
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Post by Baggie66 on Jul 20, 2012 20:17:26 GMT
Shocking.
No, sadly its not a shock, its a fuckin scandal.
Poor little mite. R.I.P.
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Post by collierswoodbaggie on Jul 20, 2012 20:33:42 GMT
I wish people would focus on things like this instead of crowing about the bloody olympics.
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Camp Freddy
played a blider!
"I do think you might make an effort to keep up with the others"
Posts: 9,592
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Post by Camp Freddy on Jul 20, 2012 20:52:11 GMT
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Post by Dharma_Albion on Jul 20, 2012 21:02:56 GMT
Wait until they pick and choose the services that they want to run. Taking those that are profitable and leaving those that aren't - like A&Es that open at night-time. |
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Camp Freddy
played a blider!
"I do think you might make an effort to keep up with the others"
Posts: 9,592
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Post by Camp Freddy on Jul 20, 2012 21:15:12 GMT
When Call Me Dave was asked about whether this bill was privatisation by the back door, he dodged the question by guaranteeing that A&Es wouldn't be privatised. Which is like answering "will you give Branson a bank for less than we paid for it?" by saying "we won't let him take on the debts".
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Post by Texas on Jul 21, 2012 9:19:09 GMT
Check out any hospital car park for the Monday to Friday period (generally full to overflowing) and then compare it with the parking space available on Saturday and Sunday (generally plentiful).
Just like any other commercial business in fact.
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Post by Prothero on Jul 21, 2012 12:54:28 GMT
Utter shite.
This is the fault of an individual being blind to need in order to follow policy. The public sector is riddled with this "Process First - Outcome Last" attitude.
Contrast this decision with my wife's treatment in Yorkshire. When she was pregnant with our first she developed complications when we were on an overnight 100 miles from home with her notes back in Brum.
We attended the Doncaster Royal Infirmary Maternity Unit and were dealt with in minutes. This isn't a systematic fault, it's individuals being too thick or terrified to make the right decision.
This a truly awful story. In a line of other awful stories particularly from Stafford Hospital. Ultimately it's individuals who have blood on their hands, and our pathetic inquiry system lets them hide behind 'procedure' and 'learning lessons.'
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Post by Malcolm Tucker on Jul 21, 2012 13:04:12 GMT
Wasn't Stafford hospital threatened with closure not long ago for being an absolute shit tip with incompetent staff?
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Post by Prothero on Jul 21, 2012 13:26:05 GMT
Wasn't Stafford hospital threatened with closure not long ago for being an absolute shit tip with incompetent staff? That's an understatement: news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/8531441.stmThe FACTS were hidden by the public sector and only came to light when a private organisation investigated. So perhaps the public 'good' / private 'bad' argument might be a little more nuanced than some on here believe. However look at the date on Hawks orginal post, then look at this. You couldn't make it up, could you? www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-stoke-staffordshire-18887283 |
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Post by rommel on Jul 21, 2012 13:39:43 GMT
We couldn't run a piss up in the proverbial !!!!!! and what idiot thought we were capable of running the olympic games  ? Should have given it to AUSTRALIA ....Sweaden or the States !!!!! proves This island is now a third world country ....good for f*** all except corruption crime and the rest........................... UNITED KINGDOM ? You gotta be jokin mate ! United Nations more like run by a bunch of toffee nosed cheatin hypocrites called the tories. who have sold our heritage down the river !!!!!! |
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PK
played a blider!
Posts: 7,721
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Post by PK on Jul 21, 2012 13:59:43 GMT
The UK a third world country.
There you have it folks. Get me Geldof on line one pronto
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secondtimer
played a blider!
We Know Something You Don't Know
Posts: 9,432
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Post by secondtimer on Jul 21, 2012 14:00:57 GMT
Blame the un socialist labour party for this
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Post by Lumpmaster Heath on Jul 21, 2012 14:13:22 GMT
It's 'gewin' to shit. Ffs sake.
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Post by Dharma_Albion on Jul 21, 2012 20:19:39 GMT
Utter shite. This is the fault of an individual being blind to need in order to follow policy. The public sector is riddled with this "Process First - Outcome Last" attitude. Contrast this decision with my wife's treatment in Yorkshire. When she was pregnant with our first she developed complications when we were on an overnight 100 miles from home with her notes back in Brum. We attended the Doncaster Royal Infirmary Maternity Unit and were dealt with in minutes. This isn't a systematic fault, it's individuals being too thick or terrified to make the right decision. This a truly awful story. In a line of other awful stories particularly from Stafford Hospital. Ultimately it's individuals who have blood on their hands, and our pathetic inquiry system lets them hide behind 'procedure' and 'learning lessons.' Take it from me, this is a systemic failure. It is as simple as this: If the A&E was open then they could have stabilised the kid in there for hours or days. As the A&E wasn't open, the Ambulance Service were fucked about for vital minutes (15+) before being told to trek up to Stoke. Yes, if they had been able to get to Stafford Hospital they would have been seen (in a completely 'out of the system' manner) but they weren't given that opportunity because the 'front door' was closed. The A&E was closed because of staffing problems. The cause of those staffing problems may well be because of the hospital's shit reputation. The cause of that hospital's poor reputation is subject of some debate - my belief is it is rooted in bad management who placed too much emphasis on (Labour) government targets. That said, there were loads of hospitals that managed those targets without killing people. Fact is though; if that A&E wasn't closed, we wouldn't have been having this debate. |
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Camp Freddy
played a blider!
"I do think you might make an effort to keep up with the others"
Posts: 9,592
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Post by Camp Freddy on Jul 21, 2012 21:59:38 GMT
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Post by HawkingsHalfpipe on Jul 21, 2012 22:09:52 GMT
The public/private debate is getting boring to be fair. There are good and bad examples abound.
For instance, if you want a great advertisement for private sector success in a cut-throat industry, look no further than your own football club.
But going back to the NHS, oddly enough my daughter - who has been poorly all week - woke up this morning with a nasty rash all over. Tried NHS Direct first thing, who suggested going to a GP. With it being Saturday, walk-in centre the best option. Got there to find it's not open until 10am, unless of course it's an emergency or you need methodone (which thankfully she doesn't). The nearest centre that was open would have taken us as long to get to as to wait, so we did. Only to be told at 10am - by the same receptionist who told us to return earlier - that we'd need an appointment and that she couldn't book us in herself - we had to get an appointment by phone only, even though we were in the same building we were to phone through to.
That's the bad, though. The good is that we got fast-tracked and half-an-hour later we were on our way with antibiotics, painkillers and various other medications.
The NHS is a great service, but sometimes its practises and procedures beggar belief.
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Post by Prothero on Jul 22, 2012 7:45:36 GMT
Fact is though; if that A&E wasn't closed, we wouldn't have been having this debate. So the fact that there is a Childrens Wards has nothing to do with it? The hospital said it was a) 'Full' and b) 'they were dealing with an emergency.' I'd have thought an emergency in a Childrens Ward was a fairly regular occurence. Maybe 2,3 or 4 emergencies at a time maybe. Is the hospital that short staffed they couldn't cope? If they haven't got a contingency they shouldn't be operating at all. It's easy to hide behind A&E being closed, but if the NHS was a truly caring organisation then they would have made room to at least stabilise the kid before moving her to Stoke. My family and I have had superb and appalling experiences of treatement on the NHS. The one thing that is consistently lacking is CARE. If care was at the forefront of modern NHS ethics this poor child would have been treated locally. |
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Post by Dharma_Albion on Jul 22, 2012 8:03:49 GMT
Wards are set up to manage patients in a controlled manner - the nursing/dr: Patient ratio is much lower than an A&E (often 4/5 patients for each nurse). A ward is set up to deal with 1 patient 'going off' at any one time unless it's a HDU or ITU (where you have 1:1 nursing). I'm not saying the people on the ward couldn't have dealt with this kid - it's just that the A&E department would have dealt with it much better. Someone took a call to divert the nipper to UHNS (ie the contingency). If the A&E wasn't closed they wouldn't have had to make that call.
I'll also take umbrage at your assertion that the NHS CONSISTENTLY lacks care. That is bollocks.
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Post by StrawMan on Jul 22, 2012 8:28:16 GMT
Wards are set up to manage patients in a controlled manner - the nursing/dr: Patient ratio is much lower than an A&E (often 4/5 patients for each nurse). A ward is set up to deal with 1 patient 'going off' at any one time unless it's a HDU or ITU (where you have 1:1 nursing). I'm not saying the people on the ward couldn't have dealt with this kid - it's just that the A&E department would have dealt with it much better. Someone took a call to divert the nipper to UHNS (ie the contingency). If the A&E wasn't closed they wouldn't have had to make that call. I'll also take umbrage at your assertion that the NHS CONSISTENTLY lacks care. That is bollocks. I'm confused as to why there should have been a 20minute delay. Yes, in an ideal world the A & E at Stafford would have been open, but it was known to close at 10:00. According to the article the paramedic didn't arrive until 22:46 so the A & E was already closed. So you have to deal with the circumstance as it is not as you would like it to be, so why was the ambulance not directed immediately to go to a hospital where an A & E was open? this would have saved the delay and the child may still be alive. Any my recent experiences with the NHS (unfortunately) have been nothing but good ones. The care and skill of the people I have been dealt with both at local medical centres and hospital are awesome. |
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Post by Tenacious S on Jul 22, 2012 9:16:18 GMT
Wards are set up to manage patients in a controlled manner - the nursing/dr: Patient ratio is much lower than an A&E (often 4/5 patients for each nurse). A ward is set up to deal with 1 patient 'going off' at any one time unless it's a HDU or ITU (where you have 1:1 nursing). I'm not saying the people on the ward couldn't have dealt with this kid - it's just that the A&E department would have dealt with it much better. Someone took a call to divert the nipper to UHNS (ie the contingency). If the A&E wasn't closed they wouldn't have had to make that call. I'll also take umbrage at your assertion that the NHS CONSISTENTLY lacks care. That is bollocks. I'll second that. In my experiences care is the one thing the NHS has in spades. Doctors and nurses in the firing line do their absolute best and care like there's no tomorrow no matter what funding/staffing/resourcing issues they're up against. |
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Post by dublinbaggie on Jul 22, 2012 9:23:06 GMT
Fact is though; if that A&E wasn't closed, we wouldn't have been having this debate. So the fact that there is a Childrens Wards has nothing to do with it? The hospital said it was a) 'Full' and b) 'they were dealing with an emergency.' I'd have thought an emergency in a Childrens Ward was a fairly regular occurence. Maybe 2,3 or 4 emergencies at a time maybe. Is the hospital that short staffed they couldn't cope? If they haven't got a contingency they shouldn't be operating at all. It's easy to hide behind A&E being closed, but if the NHS was a truly caring organisation then they would have made room to at least stabilise the kid before moving her to Stoke. My family and I have had superb and appalling experiences of treatement on the NHS. The one thing that is consistently lacking is CARE. If care was at the forefront of modern NHS ethics this poor child would have been treated locally. You keep slamming the NHS but the reason they don't show proper compassion is that they will be thrown to the wolves if something goes wrong. The little girl should have been stabilised but if she still died the staff would have been crucified for treating her outside the given parameters. |
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Post by Prothero on Jul 22, 2012 14:35:40 GMT
the staff would have been crucified for treating her outside the given parameters. You've encapsulated my point perfectly there. Process is King. |
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Post by Prothero on Jul 22, 2012 14:51:23 GMT
Wards are set up to manage patients in a controlled manner - the nursing/dr: Patient ratio is much lower than an A&E (often 4/5 patients for each nurse). A ward is set up to deal with 1 patient 'going off' at any one time unless it's a HDU or ITU (where you have 1:1 nursing). I'm not saying the people on the ward couldn't have dealt with this kid - it's just that the A&E department would have dealt with it much better. Someone took a call to divert the nipper to UHNS (ie the contingency). If the A&E wasn't closed they wouldn't have had to make that call. I'll also take umbrage at your assertion that the NHS CONSISTENTLY lacks care. That is bollocks. I'll second that. In my experiences care is the one thing the NHS has in spades. Doctors and nurses in the firing line do their absolute best and care like there's no tomorrow no matter what funding/staffing/resourcing issues they're up against. I'm delighted your experiences have been so good. Mine haven't, and from the conversations I've had over the years with family, friends and colleagues I know I'm not alone. www.guardian.co.uk/society/2011/sep/29/nhs-healthwww.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-17994478 |
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Post by Dharma_Albion on Jul 22, 2012 20:28:10 GMT
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Post by Prothero on Jul 22, 2012 21:23:11 GMT
But CONSISTENTLY lacks care? For every Stafford Hospital there is at least one Ash Court: You do know that 'private' in NHS terms isn't the same as swanning up to Edgbaston for a bit of knee surgery at The Priory don't you? I don't disagree with any of that Soph. There are appalling abuses across the piste. I don't think at any point I suggested that the private sector was a panacea. It isn't. However I have witnessed practices in the NHS that have disgusted me. Modern nurses are technically proficient, a huge amount of them being graduates - that's half the problem. Those that I came into contact with when a very close relative was on a terminal cancer ward seemed to think that dealing with the terror, bodily fluids and basic requirements of human dignity that go with illness and death were beneath them. If that sounds emotional, it's because for me it is. You have seen enough of the inside hospitals to last you a lifetime, so have I. |
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Post by Astlebridge on Jul 22, 2012 22:00:39 GMT
I'll second that. In my experiences care is the one thing the NHS has in spades. Doctors and nurses in the firing line do their absolute best and care like there's no tomorrow no matter what funding/staffing/resourcing issues they're up against. Mine haven't, and from the conversations I've had over the years with family, friends and colleagues I know I'm not alone. +1 |
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Post by Tenacious S on Jul 22, 2012 22:52:38 GMT
the staff would have been crucified for treating her outside the given parameters. You've encapsulated my point perfectly there. Process is King. Process is king in my private sector workplace too. Does process not exist in private hospitals? How about the process in the states where they won't treat until they've got a credit card imprint? |
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Post by Prothero on Jul 23, 2012 7:12:47 GMT
You've encapsulated my point perfectly there. Process is King. Process is king in my private sector workplace too. Does process not exist in private hospitals? How about the process in the states where they won't treat until they've got a credit card imprint? You're right about the US Sheff I will not argue with you on that. If ever there was a systemic failure, that's it. As I've already said, private provision is not a panacea. Of course process exists in private hospitals, but how many damning reports come out about hospital acquired infections or lack of care in Spire or BMI hospitals? A few, but not many. Care outcomes are what people pay extra for in these facilties. I don't think they should feel they have to. If any member of my immediate family needs treatment in future then I shall probably pay for it. |
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