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Post by Kiskos on Aug 1, 2012 16:59:00 GMT
Sheff's arrived. This has a six pager written all over it. I'll check back on Friday. Life is too short.
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Bibbel
Message Board Tourettes
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Post by Bibbel on Aug 1, 2012 17:01:48 GMT
<pops out for pop and popcorn>
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Post by Bromley Baggie on Aug 1, 2012 17:15:34 GMT
I was 15 when she was elected PM.
I saw, first hand, the results of her policies: the destruction of Britain's manufacturing industries. Trying to find a job when I left school in 1980 was almost impossible. A year or two later, I saw the inner cities burn as young people vented their frustrations. I agree, a lot of it was 'monkey see monkey do' in the same way as the 2011 'riots' were, but in the early 80's, there was a genuine feeling of a generation being shunned and discarded.
Thatcher was the most divisive PM this country has ever had. Her legacies have been a country with no real manufacturing base and the move of all political parties in the UK, to the point where you now have a choice between Conservative , conservative and conservative-lite.
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Post by crazylarry on Aug 1, 2012 18:18:04 GMT
Somebody mentioned Gerry Adams and Martin McGuinness being worse. Thatcher and her ilk caused more violent death than the IRA (or the UFF, UDA etc) could ever have dreamed of. Along with Reagan and the leaders in the Kremlin she also did her utmost to bring about WWIII; in the process they tipped Africa even more in to a cycle of famine and violence than Empire had already managed. The effects of the Cold War are still very evident there today. Back home she created homelessness and poverty on a massive scale. I'll dance.
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Post by Baggie66 on Aug 1, 2012 18:38:17 GMT
Whenever this thread resurfaces it never fails to create a vision in my mind, its always the same one.
A pair of legs are all you can see sticking out from beneath a house, lots of little people are running around , dancing and trying to tell some dipsy American bird with a little mutt to follow the yellow brick road.
We'd best wait until Rio says something.
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Post by Prothero on Aug 1, 2012 18:45:09 GMT
there was no need to achieve good things in an evil way. I'd hoped the standard of debate was going to be a bit better than that. Won't make 6 pages at this rate. I hope you've got something utterly triumphant up your sleeve.
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Post by Prothero on Aug 1, 2012 18:57:31 GMT
the destruction of Britain's manufacturing industries Problem is Bromley, productivity in this country had already been destroyed before 1979 by 'organised labour'. All Thatcher did was stop subsidising it. My father was an engineer with Fisher & Ludlow and spent a large part of the 1970s playing football down the park with me because he was always on strike for one ludicrous reason after another. Today we make more cars than we ever have. Today we produce more steel than we ever have. So much for the destruction of manufacturing industry. What's gone is high volume and low margin stuff, which was inevitable anyway with the growth of industry in Japan, Korea, China and India (now Turkey and eastern Europe too). Those industries did employ a lot of people - but how long can you ignore comparative advantage before it bankrupts the country? We exported our low margin manufacturing overseas decades ago and have reaped the rewards in cheap manufactured imports whilst modernising our economy. Thatcher was the only true conviction politician to be in power during my lifetime. She's the only one who will be talked about in history lessons in a hundred years time for her achievements, rather than tawdry wars in tinpot states hanging on the coatails of the American Hawks.
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Post by jezstatham on Aug 1, 2012 19:59:20 GMT
I'm no Thatch fan , never voted for her, never liked her but still find some of this celebrating her death thing ( when it happens ) to be a tad bizarre. Most of the Thatch haters on here weren't even born when she was in power . I'm saving my celebration drink for Gerry Adams. I can think of 21 reasons in Birmingham for starters do we all have to dance on majors grave?,and blairs and browns as well?.they were all as bad as each other.in fact blairs 10 times worse than the rest of them put together. is it the party that she represented that angers people or just the woman herself? and what is the thing that angers the most?.is it the privatisation issue or the poll tax issue or the miners strikes?
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Post by jezstatham on Aug 1, 2012 20:04:49 GMT
i think the worst thing ever to happen was womens lib.now there are 15 million extra jobs needed for women to do so everyone earns half the money that the man used to while his other half stayed at home.how theres only 2.5 million unemployed now is anyones guess.and as for thatcher killing the manufacturing base weve had about 20 odd years to regain one since she left office.
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Camp Freddy
played a blider!
"I do think you might make an effort to keep up with the others"
Posts: 9,592
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Post by Camp Freddy on Aug 1, 2012 20:26:50 GMT
i think the worst thing ever to happen was womens lib.now there are 15 million extra jobs needed for women to do so everyone earns half the money that the man used to while his other half stayed at home.how theres only 2.5 million unemployed now is anyones guess.and as for thatcher killing the manufacturing base weve had about 20 odd years to regain one since she left office. Showing my wife this post was my highlight of the year. She didn't believe that such dinosaurs existed, but I proved her wrong.
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Post by coxy134 on Aug 1, 2012 20:35:52 GMT
the destruction of Britain's manufacturing industries Problem is Bromley, productivity in this country had already been destroyed before 1979 by 'organised labour'. All Thatcher did was stop subsidising it. My father was an engineer with Fisher & Ludlow and spent a large part of the 1970s playing football down the park with me because he was always on strike for one ludicrous reason after another. Today we make more cars than we ever have. Today we produce more steel than we ever have. So much for the destruction of manufacturing industry. What's gone is high volume and low margin stuff, which was inevitable anyway with the growth of industry in Japan, Korea, China and India (now Turkey and eastern Europe too). Those industries did employ a lot of people - but how long can you ignore comparative advantage before it bankrupts the country? We exported our low margin manufacturing overseas decades ago and have reaped the rewards in cheap manufactured imports whilst modernising our economy. Thatcher was the only true conviction politician to be in power during my lifetime. She's the only one who will be talked about in history lessons in a hundred years time for her achievements, rather than tawdry wars in tinpot states hanging on the coatails of the American Hawks. Spot on mate, took the words out of my mouth, Where maggie went wrong was she was to stubborn in the end (though it was her good point in the beginning) to change her mind or be persuaded, as most human being in position went to her head. As some felt in the early 80's there were few oppurtunities for youngsters workwise, employed YTS schemes found th elikes of myself work
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Keef
Biff
19th Nervous Breakdown
Posts: 2,018
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Post by Keef on Aug 1, 2012 21:06:13 GMT
i think the worst thing ever to happen was womens lib.now there are 15 million extra jobs needed for women to do so everyone earns half the money that the man used to while his other half stayed at home.how theres only 2.5 million unemployed now is anyones guess.and as for thatcher killing the manufacturing base weve had about 20 odd years to regain one since she left office. Showing my wife this post was my highlight of the year. She didn't believe that such dinosaurs existed, but I proved her wrong. You should sit by us when we have a female ref's assistant. The bloke in front loves it: "OY LUV! COOK ME TAY!"
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Post by Tenacious S on Aug 1, 2012 21:07:23 GMT
there was no need to achieve good things in an evil way. I'd hoped the standard of debate was going to be a bit better than that. Won't make 6 pages at this rate. I hope you've got something utterly triumphant up your sleeve. I'd call that a shit response, but to be honest, its not even a meaningful response. What it is, is proof of why the conservatives can't be trusted with society: producing a greater volume of cars and steel is a pyrrhic victory at best when it comes at the cost of increased unemployment, destruction of communities and a reduced standard if living. It's only a "success" if you're openly choosing to govern in the interests of the few, not the many.
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Post by Prothero on Aug 1, 2012 21:23:55 GMT
What it is, is proof of why the conservatives can't be trusted with society: producing a greater volume of cars and steel is a pyrrhic victory at best when it comes at the cost of increased unemployment, destruction of communities and a reduced standard if living. It's only a "success" if you're openly choosing to govern in the interests of the few, not the many. Hmm. Maybe you should look up the definition of opportunity cost. The choice we had by the 1970s was continuing industrial chaos resulting in the utter collapse of manufacturing capacity or the development of a modern competitive sector that, unfortunately, employs far less people. It really was a choice of "shit or bust" as my dad used to say. The easily-led in this country allowed themselves to be dictated to by members and ex-members of the Communist party. As I said earlier in the thread Barbara Castle identified this problem in the sixties. Who stopped her doing anything about it? James Callaghan. His reward? Presiding over the most chaotic period in industrial relations this country has ever seen - Glenn Hoddle would call that karma. 79-81 was incredibly painful in this country, but the blame for necessity of the treatment doesn't merely lie at the feet of Thatcher. Derek Robinson, Moss Evans, Joe Gormley and others have blood on their hands. Arthur Scargill is universally loathed in Yorkshire these days. Their spirit lives on in Mark Serwotka and Bob Crow today. You tell me who those last two represent. It certainly isn't 'the many'.
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Post by jezstatham on Aug 1, 2012 22:19:59 GMT
i think the worst thing ever to happen was womens lib.now there are 15 million extra jobs needed for women to do so everyone earns half the money that the man used to while his other half stayed at home.how theres only 2.5 million unemployed now is anyones guess.and as for thatcher killing the manufacturing base weve had about 20 odd years to regain one since she left office. Showing my wife this post was my highlight of the year. She didn't believe that such dinosaurs existed, but I proved her wrong. Lol im glad you enjoyed it!!.i was joking though just trying to get a bite!!
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Post by Lt. Bookman on Aug 1, 2012 22:35:18 GMT
Re-record...
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Post by HawkingsHalfpipe on Aug 1, 2012 22:39:36 GMT
Dance? Bollocks.
Who honestly gives a shit?
Politics has gone beyond the whims of the fanatic individual (if that is what Thatcher was).
Many will see that as her fault of course, but they ignore the similar ostensible loss of civil liberty and opportunity in countries whose leaders were far less divisive than her.
Few here will dance because they actually understand. In fact some of those are busy having their arse handed to them on a plate by Prothero.
Most will actually dance because it's 'cool'.
Personally I'd prefer to look forward rather than back, and try and figure out how the people of Britain can truly take their power back. Opposed to futile 'New Socialist' regurgitations and faux 1980s sympathy arguments that are as progressive as they are interesting to read.
Too much flag and not enough mast on here. Not that I give a shit because it's a football board, FFS.
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Camp Freddy
played a blider!
"I do think you might make an effort to keep up with the others"
Posts: 9,592
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Post by Camp Freddy on Aug 2, 2012 7:16:52 GMT
Really Hawks? Read Prothero's posts again. Thatcher saved manufacturing from being destroyed by external events by destroying it herself first seems to be the gist of it.
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Post by Prothero on Aug 2, 2012 7:28:41 GMT
Really Hawks? Read Prothero's posts again. Thatcher saved manufacturing from being destroyed by external events by destroying it herself first seems to be the gist of it. I suggest you read them again Fred. Manufacturing industry was fugged a long time before Thatcher was elected. She actually helped to salvage what we could from the wreck. If that notable Thatcherite Barbara Castle could understand what the unions were doing to this country by the late Sixties I'm surprised you can't.
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Post by Dino on Aug 2, 2012 8:08:02 GMT
What did Thatcher think of recycling?
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Post by jezstatham on Aug 2, 2012 8:15:37 GMT
She was only the greengrocers daughter......
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PK
played a blider!
Posts: 7,721
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Post by PK on Aug 2, 2012 8:19:03 GMT
We'd best wait until Rio says something. She'll dance too. On the sand.
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Jammin
WBAunofficial lifetime achievement
Posts: 5,783
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Post by Jammin on Aug 2, 2012 8:22:07 GMT
What did Thatcher think of recycling? She'll be all for it when she goes
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Post by beano on Aug 2, 2012 8:29:30 GMT
An awful lot of our manufacturing base was fugged by poor management and poor labour relations, the two are so often mutual bedmates. Much of what we had was no longer fit for purpose, pi55 poor quality and even worse after sales service when that poor quality was highlighted. FWIW I do think the Thatcher government had no real measure of what was good and what was bad, this resulted in some cases of some pretty awful treatment as the baby got thrown out with bath water.
Thatcher to me was a bit like a serious illness many years ago, the medicine was in so many cases was worse than thev actual illness, but make no mistake, if the patient was UK manufacturing it was not in good health at the time.
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Post by desibaggie on Aug 2, 2012 8:47:33 GMT
Here's one fella that will be celebrating
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Post by Tenacious S on Aug 2, 2012 8:57:57 GMT
What it is, is proof of why the conservatives can't be trusted with society: producing a greater volume of cars and steel is a pyrrhic victory at best when it comes at the cost of increased unemployment, destruction of communities and a reduced standard if living. It's only a "success" if you're openly choosing to govern in the interests of the few, not the many. Hmm. Maybe you should look up the definition of opportunity cost. The choice we had by the 1970s was continuing industrial chaos resulting in the utter collapse of manufacturing capacity or the development of a modern competitive sector that, unfortunately, employs far less people. It really was a choice of "shit or bust" as my dad used to say. The easily-led in this country allowed themselves to be dictated to by members and ex-members of the Communist party. As I said earlier in the thread Barbara Castle identified this problem in the sixties. Who stopped her doing anything about it? James Callaghan. His reward? Presiding over the most chaotic period in industrial relations this country has ever seen - Glenn Hoddle would call that karma.
79-81 was incredibly painful in this country, but the blame for necessity of the treatment doesn't merely lie at the feet of Thatcher. Derek Robinson, Moss Evans, Joe Gormley and others have blood on their hands. Arthur Scargill is universally loathed in Yorkshire these days. Their spirit lives on in Mark Serwotka and Bob Crow today.
You tell me who those last two represent. It certainly isn't 'the many'.Stop tilting at windmills and straw men. I stated at the beginning that, whether I actually agree or not, I'm more than happy to stipulate that for this discussion manufacturing and labour relations reform was necessary. The main problem you have is that you are wrong in the way that you've characterised the "choice" we faced. We did not have to "choose" a more efficient manufacturing sector that employed fewer people for the same output. We could have chosen to have a larger, more efficient manufacturing sector that employed the same number of people for a larger output. Germany is the proof of this. There are and have been myriad opportunities to move into higher end manufacturing at the expense of high volume low quality materials. Thatcher didn't choose that option; she chose to decimate the entire sector leaving us where we are today with manufacturing making up a relative pittance of our GDP. Choosing to make the sector smaller in terms of its economic output wasn't a necessity. As for opportunity cost I rather think you need to check out the definition yourself. Thatcher certainly paid no heed to the opportunity cost that resulted from the destruction of communities and societies. No heed to the opportunity cost that resulted from massive unemployment. No heed to the opportunity cost to people's happiness and welfare resulting from unemployment and economic hardship. No heed to the opportunity cost that has resulted from a breakdown in society that we're still dealing with 30 years later.
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Post by dublinbaggie on Aug 2, 2012 8:58:06 GMT
As long as she isn't buried at sea.
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Post by Tenacious S on Aug 2, 2012 8:58:25 GMT
Sheff's arrived. This has a six pager written all over it. I'll check back on Friday. Life is too short. If it's that bad why don't you fuck off altogether?
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Post by Kiskos on Aug 2, 2012 9:03:00 GMT
The British Leyland Productivity Committee Just on the subject of dancing on graves, there are pleny of parents who have lost their soldier children to a Christian Fundamentalist war waged by Bush and Blair, based on a pack of lies. They too will dance when that pair of cunts die. I'll have a bit of a jig too.
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Fido
WBAunofficial lifetime achievement
Posts: 5,752
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Post by Fido on Aug 2, 2012 9:03:17 GMT
Sheff's arrived. This has a six pager written all over it. I'll check back on Friday. Life is too short. If it's that bad why don't you fuck off altogether?
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